From darrylc@fudosys.com Thu Mar 11 17:35:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA126DD4 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:35:21 -0600 (CST) From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079048079.1306.13.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 11 Mar 2004 15:34:39 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Calendula-devel] data migration Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Does anyone on the list have experience with migrating data from FileMaker and/or MS Access? I am looking ahead to import/export issues. And are there any more comments on the diagram? -D -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From creede@penguinsinthenight.com Thu Mar 11 17:49:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id D8D7E6DDE; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:49:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from igor.penguinsinthenight.com (c-24-18-220-54.client.comcast.net [24.18.220.54]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82706DD4; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:49:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by igor.penguinsinthenight.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 860CE20A38D; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:48:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:48:26 -0800 From: Creede Lambard To: Darryl Caldwell Cc: caldev Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] data migration Message-ID: <20040311234826.GE9809@igor.penguinsinthenight.com> References: <1079048079.1306.13.camel@dhcppc4> In-Reply-To: <1079048079.1306.13.camel@dhcppc4> X-Spook: /usr/local/bin/spook User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY Content-Disposition: inline Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: --1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't have experience, but I do have Google. http://starship.python.net/crew/bwilk/access.html This page admits to being somewhat outdated but might give some pointers as to how to read an Access database from Python. Unfortunately you apparently have to do this on a machine with a Jet DB engine running, which means Windows; fortunately it looks like SQL is available in the queries (at least the example given contains a SQL query). Ideally there would be a native Python module that would read Access and FileMaker tables (maybe even entire databases) and spit them back out in CSV or some other easily exportable format. On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 03:34:39PM -0800, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > Does anyone on the list have experience with migrating data from > FileMaker and/or MS Access? >=20 > I am looking ahead to import/export issues. >=20 > And are there any more comments on the diagram? >=20 > -D >=20 > --=20 > Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com > Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com > 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Calendula-devel mailing list > Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D * .~. ( : Creede Lambard : Never rush a miracle man. . / V \ . :------------------------: You get lousy miracles. /( )\ : creede at : --------------------------------^^-^^----: penguinsinthenight : =20 Linux. Reliable and free. Pick any two. : dot com : =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAUPrK6RaRqmjNX/0RApXIAJ9tjqt9hNsflkXIdbQVWF9W6Lfu0gCeIYVQ eFKxBqMC+tphAFhEI9+yI1M= =QbxA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY-- From TPanzarella@fcny.org Fri Mar 12 07:32:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id CDC446DDD; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:32:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.fcny.org (unknown [209.11.29.190]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7CE6DD4; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:31:48 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: [Calendula-devel] data migration Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:31:47 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Calendula-devel] data migration Thread-Index: AcQHw5LuyBy1bpukQ2KmjemJW9slNgAciMmQ From: "Thomas Panzarella" To: "Creede Lambard" , "Darryl Caldwell" Cc: "caldev" X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: I'm not familiar with FileMaker (and only vaguely familiar with Access), but on the Access front you could use a product like http://www.mysql.com/portal/software/item-98.html to convert the Access DB to MySQL and then from MySQL you can pretty much take it anywhere (or leave it there since MySQL is mature and robust -- IMHO). Also, I know Access can be used as an ODBC data source (maybe file maker can too???) -- so why not "roll your own" export utility? -- for example in Java you could use the freely supplied JDBC/ODBC bridge and pull data from access to whatever you want using standard JDBC. Does Python have some type of bridging driver to ODBC? Since it seems Python is your lang of choice, I'd check that out. t. > -----Original Message----- > From: Creede Lambard [mailto:creede@penguinsinthenight.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 6:48 PM > To: Darryl Caldwell > Cc: caldev > Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] data migration >=20 >=20 > I don't have experience, but I do have Google. >=20 > http://starship.python.net/crew/bwilk/access.html >=20 > This page admits to being somewhat outdated but might give=20 > some pointers as > to how to read an Access database from Python. Unfortunately=20 > you apparently > have to do this on a machine with a Jet DB engine running, which means > Windows; fortunately it looks like SQL is available in the=20 > queries (at least > the example given contains a SQL query). >=20 > Ideally there would be a native Python module that would read=20 > Access and > FileMaker tables (maybe even entire databases) and spit them=20 > back out in CSV > or some other easily exportable format. >=20 > On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 03:34:39PM -0800, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > > Does anyone on the list have experience with migrating data from > > FileMaker and/or MS Access? > >=20 > > I am looking ahead to import/export issues. > >=20 > > And are there any more comments on the diagram? > >=20 > > -D > >=20 > > --=20 > > Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com > > Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com > > 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Calendula-devel mailing list > > Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > > http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel >=20 > --=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > * .~. ( : Creede Lambard : > Never rush a miracle man. . / V \ . :------------------------: > You get lousy miracles. /( )\ : creede at : > --------------------------------^^-^^----: penguinsinthenight :=20=20 > Linux. Reliable and free. Pick any two. : dot com : > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Fri Mar 12 08:07:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 00AEF6DDD; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:07:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (unknown [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FCA6DD4 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:06:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp67796.sympatico.ca [216.208.50.129]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9941826A33; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:06:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: calendula-devel@gnu.org Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:06:13 -0500 Subject: RE: [Calendula-devel] data migration Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Cc: "caldev" , "Thomas Panzarella" Message-ID: <40517D85.16264.3B757E8@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On 12 Mar 2004 at 8:31, Thomas Panzarella wrote: > I'm not familiar with FileMaker (and only vaguely familiar with Access), > but on the Access front you could use a product like > http://www.mysql.com/portal/software/item-98.html to convert the Access > DB to MySQL and then from MySQL you can pretty much take it anywhere (or > leave it there since MySQL is mature and robust -- IMHO). > > Also, I know Access can be used as an ODBC data source (maybe file maker > can too???) -- so why not "roll your own" export utility? -- for example > in Java you could use the freely supplied JDBC/ODBC bridge and pull data > from access to whatever you want using standard JDBC. Does Python have > some type of bridging driver to ODBC? Since it seems Python is your > lang of choice, I'd check that out. Hello, all: I haven't been following this thread, and I haven't posted to this list before, which explains why I'm copying to some individuals: I'm not sure I have the right address for the list. I've worked with both FM and Access. Both support ODBC, and Python offers convenient access to ODBC. IIRC, FM's ODBC is wobbly, and as a consequence I have retrieved data from FM tables as HTML files, then parsed them. Access's ODBC has never given me trouble, and I've used it heavily, on and off, for some years. Here is some Python code to read from an Access database using ODBC. In this case Python reads from a table called "Students". It's just as easy to read from a virtual table defined with a SQL statement. # code starts here ============================== from win32com . client import Dispatch from smtplib import SMTP conn = Dispatch ( r'ADODB.Connection' ) connString = r'PROVIDER=Microsoft.Jet.OLEDB.4.0;DATA SOURCE=E:\1P97\Master\students.mdb' conn.Open ( connString ) rs = Dispatch ( r'ADODB.Recordset' ) server = SMTP ( 'smtp.vex.net', 425 ) server . set_debuglevel ( 1 ) server . login ( 'wbell', '*******' ) rs.Open ( "[students]", conn, 1, 3 ) while not rs . EOF : for addressField in [ 'email1', 'email2' ] : if rs . Fields ( addressField ) . Value : toaddr = rs . Fields ( addressField ) . Value server . sendmail ( 'bill@softwaregeneralist.ca', toaddr, """ \ Subject: Your ITIS 1P97 assignment submission code I'm sending this message to everyone in my section of ITIS 1P97. Your code is %s. Please bring it with you to every laborary session. Perhaps you could write it on a slip of paper that you keep in your billfold or handbag? Thanks. Bill Bell """ % rs . Fields ( 'code' ) . Value ) #~ break rs . Move ( 1 ) rs . Close ( ) server . quit ( ) # code ends here ============================== Would someone mind restating the problem to be solved? Best regards, Bill From darrylc@fudosys.com Fri Mar 12 11:08:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from www.fudosys.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CD4D6DD4 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:08:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from 64.38.163.140 (SquirrelMail authenticated user darrylc@fudosys.com) by webmail.fudosys.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:08:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34725.64.38.163.140.1079111324.squirrel@webmail.fudosys.com> In-Reply-To: <40517D85.16264.3B757E8@localhost> References: <40517D85.16264.3B757E8@localhost> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:08:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: [Calendula-devel] data migration From: "Darryl Caldwell" To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Bill, Bill, Bill, where were you when I needed your expertise last year? ;-) Thanks for that great code snippet. I can see putting that to use REAL SOON. The problem to be solved is to start planning for migration of data in FM and Access databases over to Calendula. Thomas and others have suggested that many small nonprofits use FM and Access to store their donor data. Some type of migration tools should be present early on and I want to make sure the path is mapped out. -D > > Hello, all: > > I haven't been following this thread, and I haven't posted to this list > before, which > explains why I'm copying to some individuals: I'm not sure I have the > right address > for the list. > > I've worked with both FM and Access. Both support ODBC, and Python offers > convenient access to ODBC. IIRC, FM's ODBC is wobbly, and as a consequence > I > have retrieved data from FM tables as HTML files, then parsed them. > Access's > ODBC has never given me trouble, and I've used it heavily, on and off, for > some > years. > == Code sample snipped == > > Would someone mind restating the problem to be solved? > -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com www.fudosys.com From darrylc@fudosys.com Fri Mar 12 11:26:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from www.fudosys.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 313B06DD4 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:26:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from 64.38.163.140 (SquirrelMail authenticated user darrylc@fudosys.com) by webmail.fudosys.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:26:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34741.64.38.163.140.1079112391.squirrel@webmail.fudosys.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:26:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Darryl Caldwell" To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Subject: [Calendula-devel] Everyone has been unsubscribed from gnu list Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: You may have just received the goodbye msg from the gnu list. I just unsubscribed us all from there. Direct all your posts to calendula-devel@fudosys.com from now on. Thanks. -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com www.fudosys.com From creede@penguinsinthenight.com Fri Mar 12 11:42:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 1CC076DD4; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:42:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from igor.penguinsinthenight.com (c-24-18-220-54.client.comcast.net [24.18.220.54]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2786DDD; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:42:16 -0600 (CST) Received: by igor.penguinsinthenight.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5032120C47F; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:42:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:42:13 -0800 From: Creede Lambard To: Darryl Caldwell Cc: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] data migration Message-ID: <20040312174213.GK9809@igor.penguinsinthenight.com> References: <40517D85.16264.3B757E8@localhost> <34725.64.38.163.140.1079111324.squirrel@webmail.fudosys.com> In-Reply-To: <34725.64.38.163.140.1079111324.squirrel@webmail.fudosys.com> X-Spook: /usr/local/bin/spook User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tqI+Z3u+9OQ7kwn0" Content-Disposition: inline Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: --tqI+Z3u+9OQ7kwn0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The problem as I see it is that unless these databases are from programs wi= th standardized formats, you are going to have a bunch of tables slapped together and won't know programmatically which field represents which information in Calendula's database. I guess you could migrate data to CSV files and then have a tool to import the CSV information by specifying which FM/Access field maps to which Calendula field, but I don't think even that = is as straightforward as it sounds. Not to say we shouldn't do it, of course. Just saying it's going to require some skullsweat before the code gets written. On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 09:08:44AM -0800, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > Bill, Bill, Bill, where were you when I needed your expertise last year? = ;-) >=20 > Thanks for that great code snippet. I can see putting that to use REAL > SOON. The problem to be solved is to start planning for migration of data > in FM and Access databases over to Calendula. Thomas and others have > suggested that many small nonprofits use FM and Access to store their > donor data. Some type of migration tools should be present early on and I > want to make sure the path is mapped out. >=20 > -D --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D * .~. ( : Creede Lambard : Never rush a miracle man. . / V \ . :------------------------: You get lousy miracles. /( )\ : creede at : --------------------------------^^-^^----: penguinsinthenight : =20 Linux. Reliable and free. Pick any two. : dot com : =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --tqI+Z3u+9OQ7kwn0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFAUfZ06RaRqmjNX/0RAiiTAJdr5pvSeGMW9cPx+rkwimXpBktBAJ9CzfZI AyoOxgIrGsZrZe7R0pttcQ== =2rNN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tqI+Z3u+9OQ7kwn0-- From TPanzarella@fcny.org Fri Mar 12 11:44:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id B61606DD4; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:44:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.fcny.org (unknown [209.11.29.190]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030F26DDD for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:44:02 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: [Calendula-devel] data migration Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:44:01 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Calendula-devel] data migration Thread-Index: AcQIVLssN/fABdIkSBWSpQr94eeHvQAAzatg From: "Thomas Panzarella" To: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: With all of the Calendula movement (list, etc.) could you (Darryl) quickly = send out an email that says where the lists are, where the CVS is located, = and any other pertinent info for contributors? Also, at this point, I think we should turn discussions to finializing requ= irements, building a clear project plan document, and building out technica= l specifications -- I'd suggest we try to stick with some "standards" when = trying to communicate technical aspects of the project (i.e. UML Diagrams, = Use Cases, etc.). I feel sort of lost as to how to intelligently contribut= e here. We are talking data migration but what is the context? We looked = at a code snippet that connects to a database but, (again) what is the cont= ext? Who on this list is heading to Philly for NTEN? I propose a meetup of peop= le interested in the Calendula project to sit and discuss some details. I = will volunteer myself to draft up "minutes", so to speak, from that meeting= to communicate back to the group at large. Eventhough this is the "less f= un part" of open source, we need to work out the politics of how the "calen= dula community" is going to work. Set up a "board" ... who is "code captai= n", who is "zealot", who will maintain a bug database, who will maintain th= e list servs / cvs / etc., who is a "comitter" to cvs, who will set up - ma= intain - and make look pretty/professional the calendula project web site, = etc. There are many issues that need to get worked out ... I am going to a= ssume that Darryl does not want to take on all of those roles. t. > -----Original Message----- > From: Darryl Caldwell [mailto:darrylc@fudosys.com] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:09 PM > To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com > Subject: RE: [Calendula-devel] data migration >=20 >=20 > Bill, Bill, Bill, where were you when I needed your expertise=20 > last year? ;-) >=20 > Thanks for that great code snippet. I can see putting that to use REAL > SOON. The problem to be solved is to start planning for=20 > migration of data > in FM and Access databases over to Calendula. Thomas and others have > suggested that many small nonprofits use FM and Access to store their > donor data. Some type of migration tools should be present=20 > early on and I > want to make sure the path is mapped out. >=20 > -D >=20 >=20 > > > > Hello, all: > > > > I haven't been following this thread, and I haven't posted=20 > to this list > > before, which > > explains why I'm copying to some individuals: I'm not sure=20 > I have the > > right address > > for the list. > > > > I've worked with both FM and Access. Both support ODBC, and=20 > Python offers > > convenient access to ODBC. IIRC, FM's ODBC is wobbly, and=20 > as a consequence > > I > > have retrieved data from FM tables as HTML files, then parsed them. > > Access's > > ODBC has never given me trouble, and I've used it heavily,=20 > on and off, for > > some > > years. > > > =3D=3D Code sample snipped =3D=3D > > > > Would someone mind restating the problem to be solved? > > >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Darryl Caldwell > darrylc@fudosys.com > www.fudosys.com > _______________________________________________ > Calendula-devel mailing list > Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel >=20 From TPanzarella@fcny.org Fri Mar 12 11:49:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 80E916DDD; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:49:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.fcny.org (unknown [209.11.29.190]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7B66DD4 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:48:29 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: [Calendula-devel] data migration Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:48:29 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Calendula-devel] data migration Thread-Index: AcQIWXg3RDIvSc+RRkyw2wqJsQXa1wAADlTw From: "Thomas Panzarella" To: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Agreed. The way that I think this is best attacked is to create a clear specification on a data import file format or API. Then have individuals who have a personal stake in writing, for example, a Raiser's Edge to Calendula data migration tool to build the driver that will extract from RE into the Calendula's published import format and then run the Calendula import tools against that file or set of files to import the data. Much easier on the Calendula side and promotes community and could ultimately mean support for many more systems in the end... t. > -----Original Message----- > From: Creede Lambard [mailto:creede@penguinsinthenight.com] > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:42 PM > To: Darryl Caldwell > Cc: calendula-devel@fudosys.com > Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] data migration >=20 >=20 > The problem as I see it is that unless these databases are=20 > from programs with > standardized formats, you are going to have a bunch of tables slapped > together and won't know programmatically which field represents which > information in Calendula's database. I guess you could=20 > migrate data to CSV > files and then have a tool to import the CSV information by=20 > specifying which > FM/Access field maps to which Calendula field, but I don't=20 > think even that is > as straightforward as it sounds. >=20 > Not to say we shouldn't do it, of course. Just saying it's=20 > going to require > some skullsweat before the code gets written. >=20 > On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 09:08:44AM -0800, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > > Bill, Bill, Bill, where were you when I needed your=20 > expertise last year? ;-) > >=20 > > Thanks for that great code snippet. I can see putting that=20 > to use REAL > > SOON. The problem to be solved is to start planning for=20 > migration of data > > in FM and Access databases over to Calendula. Thomas and others have > > suggested that many small nonprofits use FM and Access to=20 > store their > > donor data. Some type of migration tools should be present=20 > early on and I > > want to make sure the path is mapped out. > >=20 > > -D >=20 > --=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > * .~. ( : Creede Lambard : > Never rush a miracle man. . / V \ . :------------------------: > You get lousy miracles. /( )\ : creede at : > --------------------------------^^-^^----: penguinsinthenight :=20=20 > Linux. Reliable and free. Pick any two. : dot com : > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Fri Mar 12 16:23:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 8609C6DDD; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:23:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A716DD4; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:22:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp106896.sympatico.ca [216.209.129.113]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8A425A01; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:22:40 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: "Darryl Caldwell" , calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:22:29 -0500 Subject: RE: [Calendula-devel] data migration Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Message-ID: <4051F1D5.23881.57DB0C8@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34725.64.38.163.140.1079111324.squirrel@webmail.fudosys.com> References: <40517D85.16264.3B757E8@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On 12 Mar 2004 at 9:08, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > Bill, Bill, Bill, where were you when I needed your expertise last year? ;-) Appearances to the contrary notwithstanding, my life is not all laughs and excitement. I was probably sitting in this very chair last year staring at this very screen. :o) > The problem to be solved is to start planning for migration of data > in FM and Access databases over to Calendula. ... Thanks for the summary! Bill From darrylc@fudosys.com Sun Mar 14 16:00:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from fudosys.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E1E5E6DDD for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:00:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from 207.254.100.206 (SquirrelMail authenticated user darrylc@fudosys.com) by webmail.fudosys.com with HTTP; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:00:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <18067.207.254.100.206.1079301656.squirrel@webmail.fudosys.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:00:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Darryl Caldwell" To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal References: In-Reply-To: Subject: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: > With all of the Calendula movement (list, etc.) could you (Darryl) quickly > send out an email that says where the lists are, where the CVS is located, > and any other pertinent info for contributors? Quicker than quick! I've just spent 2 days at a YMCA development conference, breaking bread with fundraisers and spying on all of the proprietary software vendors. I encourage everyone who does not currently have a relationship with a nonprofit/charity to do this. It is well worth getting a peak at the requirement from their side; and let me tell you that cultivation of donors is key to getting their funding. Calendula shall be key to this process. So here are a few quick details requested by Thomas: Calendula Project: https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/calendula/ Calendula is part of the gnu project. Developers can get accounts here and receive contributor status. This is also the easiest way to view and access the cvs repository. This will change again and again, of course. Please visit and get an account. This will be your first step. In CVS you will find: REQ -- requirements doc ROADMAP - skeletal survey_questions -- survey for end-users universal_article - the business case article for Calendula database - directory contains: db schema in postgres format, OpenOffice diagram of the db tables. All of this needs updating and warts removed. Calendula Development mailing list: http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel UI workflow diagram can be viewed at: http://fudosys.com/calendula-diagram.png I will be adding it to CVS soon. Here is the list of potential coders: Me Creede L. Thomas P. David G. And potential collaborators from DicipleMakers: Matthew P. Jason M. Tom H. Brian R. Some arms may need twisting from the list above. Now regarding the context of the database migration discussion I started it simply to get an idea of a possible migration path and how this would impact the early stages of the project. We will revisit it later on. I don't want anyone to feel stuck or lost. Squeaky wheels will get greased. If no one but Tom P. is going to N-TEN, we could schedule a conference call to act on "who owns what". And I could get started with Mr. Project.... -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com www.fudosys.com From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Mon Mar 15 06:53:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 8C0D06DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:53:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3976DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:52:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp67807.sympatico.ca [216.208.50.140]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396482506C for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:52:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Message-ID: <405560C6.5270.12E70BA1@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <18067.207.254.100.206.1079301656.squirrel@webmail.fudosys.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On 14 Mar 2004 at 14:00, Darryl Caldwell wrote, in part: > > So here are a few quick details requested by Thomas: > > Calendula Project: > > https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/calendula/ I've reviewed some of the project documents. Has there been any discussion about what the main coding language will be? Bill From tpanzarella@mac.com Mon Mar 15 07:18:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id C24356DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:18:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.97]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F397E6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:17:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail18.mac.com (webmail18-en1 [10.13.10.160]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2FDHmRW015779 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail18 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail18.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i2FDHlCL020138 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:17:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <15226085.1079356667545.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:17:47 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10 version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: I believe that Darryl wanted to implement (at least the prototype) in Python. Is this set in stone? t. On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 07:52AM, Bill Bell wrote: > >On 14 Mar 2004 at 14:00, Darryl Caldwell wrote, in part: >> >> So here are a few quick details requested by Thomas: >> >> Calendula Project: >> >> https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/calendula/ > >I've reviewed some of the project documents. Has there been any discussion about >what the main coding language will be? > >Bill >_______________________________________________ >Calendula-devel mailing list >Calendula-devel@fudosys.com >http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel > > From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Mon Mar 15 07:41:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 037BF6DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:41:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E93C6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:40:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp67807.sympatico.ca [216.208.50.140]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B42A0260D1 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:40:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:40:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Message-ID: <40556C0F.11354.13132159@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_30,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Thomas Panzarella > I believe that Darryl wanted to implement (at least the prototype) in > Python. Is this set in stone? I do not want to impose my preferences on others. However, I'm up to speed with Python and wxPython, and I'd be a willing participant. Bill PS: Recipes: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python (search for "Bill Bell" with quotation marks) http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/FindPage?action=fullsearch&value=Bill+Bell&conte xt=40 http://www.zopelabs.com/cookbook/1054211661 From tpanzarella@mac.com Mon Mar 15 07:52:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id B3F436DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:52:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41A66DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:51:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail18.mac.com (webmail18-en1 [10.13.10.160]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2FDpwiv029226 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail18 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail18.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i2FDpwCL020714 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:51:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3152748.1079358718555.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:51:58 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: I too can deal with Python. But I must say, that I am inclined to think that a compiled language with strong typing would be preferred for a project of this scope. Also, I think much more important that the ultimate language is the architecture. A well designed object model and the use of patterns will pay off many times over in the end. If the design is done right, we could code this in any language that supports OO -- if I'm not mistaken, GetActive is coded in TCL and look at the success there! t. On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 08:40AM, Bill Bell wrote: > >Thomas Panzarella > >> I believe that Darryl wanted to implement (at least the prototype) in >> Python. Is this set in stone? > >I do not want to impose my preferences on others. However, I'm up to speed with >Python and wxPython, and I'd be a willing participant. > >Bill > >PS: Recipes: > >http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python (search for "Bill Bell" with >quotation marks) > >http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/FindPage?action=fullsearch&value=Bill+Bell&conte >xt=40 > >http://www.zopelabs.com/cookbook/1054211661 >_______________________________________________ >Calendula-devel mailing list >Calendula-devel@fudosys.com >http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel > > From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Mon Mar 15 08:11:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 9DA6B6DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:11:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2136DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:11:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp67807.sympatico.ca [216.208.50.140]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD3326E3C for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:11:22 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:11:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Message-ID: <4055733D.10728.132F2FC9@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3152748.1079358718555.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On 15 Mar 2004 at 8:51, Thomas Panzarella wrote: > > I too can deal with Python. But I must say, that I am inclined to > think that a compiled language with strong typing would be preferred > for a project of this scope. (a) We can "compile" Python in various ways. The compiled codes are, of course, larger. However, that might not be an important factor for this project. (b) Python _is_ strongly typed. > Also, I think much more important that the ultimate language is the architecture. Perhaps we can agree that we will surely fail if we do a poor job of the architecture. I believe it might have been you that mentioned using UML. OK. An alternative would be literate programming, which is supported by Leo. This would have the advantage that it tends to be easier to exchange and modify texts than graphics. Or, maybe there's a free vehicle that supports UML; I'd love to know about one. > A well designed object model and the use of patterns will pay off many > times over in the end. Yes, I agree. At the same time, there are numerous ways of achieving that. > If the design is done right, we could code this in any language that > supports OO -- Sure. However, it's worth considering the fact that some languages in which we could code (and I'm thinking of C++) might cost us two or three times the work. Anyway, I was just letting others know what I can offer. It might be that my ego got in the way. Cheers, Bill From tpanzarella@mac.com Mon Mar 15 09:01:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 515346DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:01:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-87.apple.com [17.250.248.87]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779D06DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:00:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail18.mac.com (webmail18-en1 [10.13.10.160]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2FF0RYx021715 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail18 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail18.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i2FF0RCL022013 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:00:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6045366.1079362827702.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:00:27 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 09:11AM, Bill Bell wrote: > >(b) Python _is_ strongly typed. > I disagree, but that's not the point of this discussion. What I will agree on is that "strong testing" of Python code can ultimately lead to the same end result of strong static type checking at compile time (ala C++, Java, etc.) ... of course just because code compiles doesn't mean it *works* ... strong testing is just as important in a C++ or Java environment as well. > >> Also, I think much more important that the ultimate language is the architecture. > >Perhaps we can agree that we will surely fail if we do a poor job of the architecture. > Agreed. > >I believe it might have been you that mentioned using UML. OK. > yep. > >An alternative would be literate programming, which is supported by Leo. This would >have the advantage that it tends to be easier to exchange and modify texts than >graphics. > Don't know about this ... send some links that we could check out... > >Or, maybe there's a free vehicle that supports UML; I'd love to know about >one. > http://www.gentleware.com/products/descriptions/ce.php4 > >> If the design is done right, we could code this in any language that >> supports OO -- > >Sure. However, it's worth considering the fact that some languages in which we could >code (and I'm thinking of C++) might cost us two or three times the work. > I was actually thinking Java. With the amount of freely available and open source development tools for Java today, I think Java developement can happen just as fast as using a scripting language like Perl or Python (YMMV). I also think that there are additional benefits to Java: 1- javadoc - API docs are just as important as code in an open source project and javadoc makes it painless 2- native look-and-feels via Swing - support for XP, Java, GTK+, and Aqua. Anyway, I absolutely don't want to debate over language preferences with anyone. I think we need to do our technical due diligence when designing this system taking into account the environment that the system will be running in (non-profits that can't afford off-the-shelf tools and could care less what the underlying technology is). I'm interested in helping non-profits, not debating the technical merits of Python vs. Java or whatever.... Also, I want it to be clear that I have nothing against Python. I enjoy programming in Python. If that is what Calendula is ultimately going to be implemented in, so be it. I was just throwing in another perspective / preference .... t. From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Mon Mar 15 10:27:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id E85426DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:27:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F1B6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:26:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp112770.sympatico.ca [216.209.142.145]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE9A259CD for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:26:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:26:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Message-ID: <405592F0.19943.13AB010B@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <6045366.1079362827702.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On 15 Mar 2004 at 10:00, Thomas Panzarella wrote: > > What I will agree on is that "strong testing" ... I seem to hear you alluding to the idea that language choice and testing strategy are interdependent. If so, I definitely agree, FWIW. We would need to discuss this further. In fact, we need statements about language choice and testing strategy. More generally, I haven't noticed any outline about software engineering for this project. Perhaps we should start one, so that, as far as possible, we discuss issues once, record decisions, then move on to issues that haven't been decided. > Don't know about [Leo] ... send some links that we could check out... http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html ... which seems to provide a link to literate programming, as a bonus. I was amazed to see an idea as old as this re-emerge; still, it might help us. > >Or, maybe there's a free vehicle that supports UML; I'd love to know about > >one. > http://www.gentleware.com/products/descriptions/ce.php4 Thanks. Poseidon seems to be most closely associated with java, but then Leo favours Python work. Either looks interesting to me. Let's put this matter into an outline. Once we have enough items, let's priortise them, and finish discussions, so that we can move on. > Anyway, I absolutely don't want to debate over language preferences > with anyone. ...I'm interested in helping non-profits, not debating > the technical merits of Python vs. Java or whatever.... So you concede that Python is better???? Only joking! I don't care either. However, we need to start a process for taking decisions in order to make progress. Bill From creede@penguinsinthenight.com Mon Mar 15 11:58:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 7A9936DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:58:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from igor.penguinsinthenight.com (c-24-18-220-54.client.comcast.net [24.18.220.54]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C476DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:57:48 -0600 (CST) Received: by igor.penguinsinthenight.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0F9B3216089; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:57:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:57:46 -0800 From: Creede Lambard To: Bill Bell Cc: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] construction plans to date Message-ID: <20040315175746.GC24283@igor.penguinsinthenight.com> References: <3152748.1079358718555.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> <4055733D.10728.132F2FC9@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4055733D.10728.132F2FC9@localhost> X-Spook: /usr/local/bin/spook User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e Content-Disposition: inline Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: --Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 15, 2004 at 09:11:25AM -0500, Bill Bell wrote: > Sure. However, it's worth considering the fact that some languages in whi= ch > we could code (and I'm thinking of C++) might cost us two or three times > the work. > C++ will also probably cost you at least one potential developer. I'm just another Perl hacker who knows enough Python to get into trouble, and while I can probably trust myself to get up to speed on wxPython quickly enough to = do some code for Calendula, I make no such claims about C, C++ or Java. (Howev= er if Calendula were to go to one of these languages, even if I'm not coding, I know how to write documentation and the like.) Python might also make it easier for NPOs to do their own modifications to the code, since it's much easier to learn than lower-level languages. And on a slightly less serious note, Darryl is a card-carrying member of House Slytherin, and he has so far resisted my efforts to convert him back = to the Multiple True Ways of Perl, where I first met him. --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D * .~. ( : Creede Lambard : Never rush a miracle man. . / V \ . :------------------------: You get lousy miracles. /( )\ : creede at : --------------------------------^^-^^----: penguinsinthenight : =20 Linux. Reliable and free. Pick any two. : dot com : =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAVe6a6RaRqmjNX/0RAoU6AJ9SCTLy/UY5wtd7Ot+uXWXrcPrTzgCfUzyU Zy4XTMo+uXrjPmMbboyeOgQ= =se7z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e-- From maasj@dm.org Mon Mar 15 12:15:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id DA61B6DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:15:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.dm.org (noah.dm.org [216.169.168.27]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9086DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:14:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from noah.dm.org (noah.dm.org [216.169.168.27]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.dm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29BD0235202 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:14:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:14:39 -0500 (EST) From: Jason Maas To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Message-ID: X-DiscipleMakers-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: [Calendula-devel] GNUe analysis - might be helpful Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Hi all, I'm excited to see the traffic on this list increasing and things starting to roll! I have a thought for an exercise that could be very helpful for us. I think it might be wise to do some sort of analysis of the GNUe project (www.gnue.org). I think it would be helpful to understand their architecture and learn from their experience. If we're not going to join them then I think someone should write down why and what we want to do differently. That would help us avoid reinventing the wheel and probably be useful in the future as people stop in and ask how Calendula is differnt from GNUe. I'm just thinking of a simple one page writeup with some bullets and a summary. Does this sound useful? Anyone wanna give it a shot? Jason -- Jason Maas DiscipleMakers Systems Dept --> www.dm.org From darrylc@fudosys.com Mon Mar 15 13:10:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A21D6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:10:25 -0600 (CST) From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev In-Reply-To: <405592F0.19943.13AB010B@localhost> References: <405592F0.19943.13AB010B@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079377605.1305.44.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 15 Mar 2004 11:06:46 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Calendula-devel] plans plans plans Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Hello all, Thanks for all of the input. I can hear nonprofits around the world breathing an unconscious sigh of relief.... Ok. The tasks at hand: 1. If you are interested in development, get an account on Savannah and let me know your account name. 2. Design docs. First, do the requirements (REQ) look good to everyone? Do we need to convert any of the existing items into standard UML? 3. Language: Python for flexibility, readability, and as my own safety net (meaning if you all get hit by a bus, I need to be able to forge ahead). wxPython has really good support for adopting a native look/feel, but this will come after the Zope prototype. -D On Mon, 2004-03-15 at 08:26, Bill Bell wrote: > On 15 Mar 2004 at 10:00, Thomas Panzarella wrote: > > > > What I will agree on is that "strong testing" .. > > I seem to hear you alluding to the idea that language choice and testing strategy are > interdependent. If so, I definitely agree, FWIW. We would need to discuss this > further. In fact, we need statements about language choice and testing strategy. > > More generally, I haven't noticed any outline about software engineering for this > project. Perhaps we should start one, so that, as far as possible, we discuss issues > once, record decisions, then move on to issues that haven't been decided. > > > Don't know about [Leo] ... send some links that we could check out... > > http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html > > ... which seems to provide a link to literate programming, as a bonus. I was amazed > to see an idea as old as this re-emerge; still, it might help us. > > > >Or, maybe there's a free vehicle that supports UML; I'd love to know about > > >one. > > http://www.gentleware.com/products/descriptions/ce.php4 > > Thanks. Poseidon seems to be most closely associated with java, but then Leo > favours Python work. Either looks interesting to me. Let's put this matter into an > outline. Once we have enough items, let's priortise them, and finish discussions, so > that we can move on. > > > Anyway, I absolutely don't want to debate over language preferences > > with anyone. ...I'm interested in helping non-profits, not debating > > the technical merits of Python vs. Java or whatever.... > > So you concede that Python is better???? Only joking! > > I don't care either. However, we need to start a process for taking decisions in order > to make progress. > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Calendula-devel mailing list > Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From darrylc@fudosys.com Mon Mar 15 13:42:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192BD6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:42:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] GNUe analysis - might be helpful From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079379527.1305.72.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 15 Mar 2004 11:38:47 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Analysis of GNUe framework... I am not sure that is a good idea, since I did spend a lot of time on it a while back. But I think we can do this right here and then someone can summarize. Why GNUe isn't good for Calendula: * Poor documentation (the current developers prefer IRC) * Unstable framework * Poor support (very little list traffic), limited adoption * inflexible UI design I used spent a couple of weeks downloading their IRC logs and grepping for the answers to my questions. I eventually decided that this is not a good foundation to build one's house upon. When I pointed this out to them they said, "well that's how we like to work." A better analysis would be to look at the GNUMED project (www.gnumed.org). On Mon, 2004-03-15 at 10:14, Jason Maas wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm excited to see the traffic on this list increasing and things starting > to roll! I have a thought for an exercise that could be very helpful for > us. > > I think it might be wise to do some sort of analysis of the GNUe project > (www.gnue.org). I think it would be helpful to understand their > architecture and learn from their experience. If we're not going to join > them then I think someone should write down why and what we want to do > differently. That would help us avoid reinventing the wheel and probably > be useful in the future as people stop in and ask how Calendula is > differnt from GNUe. > > I'm just thinking of a simple one page writeup with some bullets and a > summary. Does this sound useful? Anyone wanna give it a shot? > > Jason -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From tpanzarella@mac.com Mon Mar 15 14:24:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 2F0316DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:24:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-45.apple.com [17.250.248.45]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 557916DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:24:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail07.mac.com (webmail07-en1 [10.13.11.149]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2FKOAvx016074 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail07 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail07.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i2FKOARE027101 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:24:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <11874033.1079382250561.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:24:10 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: caldev Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] plans plans plans X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 02:06PM, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > >3. Language: Python for flexibility, readability, and as my own safety >net (meaning if you all get hit by a bus, I need to be able to forge >ahead). wxPython has really good support for adopting a native >look/feel, but this will come after the Zope prototype. > Good man Darryl. Just what we need, a "benevolent dictator". From maasj@dm.org Mon Mar 15 14:35:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id E20C86DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:35:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.dm.org (noah.dm.org [216.169.168.27]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3114A6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:34:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from noah.dm.org (noah.dm.org [216.169.168.27]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.dm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F292E23523F for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:34:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:34:46 -0500 (EST) From: Jason Maas To: caldev Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] GNUe analysis - might be helpful In-Reply-To: <1079379527.1305.72.camel@dhcppc4> Message-ID: References: <1079379527.1305.72.camel@dhcppc4> X-DiscipleMakers-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: maasj@dm.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Hi Darryl, On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Darryl Caldwell wrote: >But I think we can do this right here and then someone can summarize. Great! I wasn't looking for anything real in-depth. >Why GNUe isn't good for Calendula: > >* Poor documentation (the current developers prefer IRC) >* Poor support (very little list traffic), limited adoption While those do raise red flags, I don't think they're show stoppers because they're fairly easily remedied. >* Unstable framework >* inflexible UI design These two are more interesting. Could you write a sentence or two about each one explaining what you mean? For example, by "unstable" do you mean that it crashes often or that the API changes daily...? >A better analysis would be to look at the GNUMED project >(www.gnumed.org). I poked around briefly on their website. I had never heard of the project before but it does look interesting. What in particular should we look at? Jason -- Jason Maas DiscipleMakers Systems Dept --> www.dm.org From tpanzarella@mac.com Mon Mar 15 14:38:16 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 2B5076DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:38:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.83]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9DF6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:37:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail07.mac.com (webmail07-en1 [10.13.11.149]) by smtpout.mac.com (8.12.6/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2FKbhhB015475 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail07 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail07.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i2FKbhRE027319 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:37:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <247821.1079383063139.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:37:43 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: caldev X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01 version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Calendula-devel] Calendula PR at NTEN / Penguin Day Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: For those who are unaware, there is a mini conference being run in conjunction w/ NTEN in Philly at the end of the month called "Penguin Day" - http://www.penguinday.org. The point of it is to bring together open source developers and NGOs to start facilitating communication and the development of open source apps for NGOs. I have been asked by the organizers to facilitate a session at Penguin Day called "Emerging Technologies" / "Open Sourcing Java" -- my question is, do we want to "plug" Calendula there? If so, let's collaborate on what we would like to announce to the community at Penguin Day and I would be more than willing to be the mouth piece for us or to distribute literature, etc. t. From mako@yukidoke.org Mon Mar 15 15:06:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 8F0636DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:06:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5316DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:05:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B2zHU-0008MJ-00 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:05:53 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 4.30) id 1B2zHS-0005vK-Jn for calendula-devel@fudosys.com; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:05:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:05:50 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: caldev Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] Calendula PR at NTEN / Penguin Day Message-ID: <20040315210550.GT20438@yukidoke.org> References: <247821.1079383063139.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <247821.1079383063139.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0rEjiS+nMGFQ7Kkj" Content-Disposition: inline Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: --0rEjiS+nMGFQ7Kkj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 15, 2004 at 03:37:43PM -0500, Thomas Panzarella wrote: > For those who are unaware, there is a mini conference being run in > conjunction w/ NTEN in Philly at the end of the month called > "Penguin Day" - http://www.penguinday.org. The point of it is to > bring together open source developers and NGOs to start facilitating > communication and the development of open source apps for NGOs. I > have been asked by the organizers to facilitate a session at Penguin > Day called "Emerging Technologies" / "Open Sourcing Java" -- my > question is, do we want to "plug" Calendula there? If so, let's > collaborate on what we would like to announce to the community at > Penguin Day and I would be more than willing to be the mouth piece > for us or to distribute literature, etc. I'll be there as well. --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --0rEjiS+nMGFQ7Kkj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAVhquic1LIWB1WeYRAnxYAKDpWBvz4uReAfVQDfyyh9zk76NvkwCglIld CRcju0N8bLTtzmMxoj+HLQc= =f2gt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0rEjiS+nMGFQ7Kkj-- From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Mon Mar 15 15:08:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id AD5016DDE; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:08:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3D46DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:07:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp112683.sympatico.ca [216.209.142.58]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194812577E for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:07:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:07:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] plans plans plans Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Message-ID: <4055D4DC.9896.14AC8400@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1079377605.1305.44.camel@dhcppc4> References: <405592F0.19943.13AB010B@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On 15 Mar 2004 at 11:06, Darryl Caldwell wrote, in part: > 2. Design docs. First, do the requirements (REQ) look good to everyone? Donors are often drawn by tax advantages and concessions. For example, in Canada about 75% of one's donation to a registered political party is refundable at income tax time. Donors might be more willing to cough up again if reminded of benefits they'd had before. Perhaps we should consider providing for information about each donor with to tax. Bill From bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Mon Mar 15 15:12:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 856E56DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:12:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from smaug.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [66.246.136.211]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FFE6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:12:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (Hamilton-ppp112683.sympatico.ca [216.209.142.58]) by smaug.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91DEB25798 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:12:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Bell" Organization: Bill Bell To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:12:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] plans plans plans Reply-To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Message-ID: <4055D5DD.2665.14B06E2F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1079377605.1305.44.camel@dhcppc4> References: <405592F0.19943.13AB010B@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Mail message body Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On 15 Mar 2004 at 11:06, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > > 3. Language: Python for flexibility, readability, and as my own safety net > (meaning if you all get hit by a bus, I need to be able to forge ahead). > wxPython has really good support for adopting a native look/feel, but this > will come after the Zope prototype. Multi-client systems are harder to build than those that are for single clients. What's more, we are likely to spend considerable time fooling with the GUI, and it might be unwise to need to drag a server along with us--_especially_ Zope. (Lots of people never get over the learning curve for that beasty.) Why not build a single-client version of the system first? One immediate payoff would be that it could be distributed to quite small non-profits (who are, after all, principal targets for the system), which would benefit them and give us a lot of feedback about usability and the like. Bill From tpanzarella@mac.com Mon Mar 15 15:32:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id CCA416DDD; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:32:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.44]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB316DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:32:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail07.mac.com (webmail07-en1 [10.13.11.149]) by smtpout.mac.com (8.12.6/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2FLW0NT007011 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail07 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail07.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i2FLVxRE028263 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:31:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <10237726.1079386319840.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:31:59 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: caldev Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] Calendula PR at NTEN / Penguin Day X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 04:05PM, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > >I'll be there as well. > Great. Let's meet up and chat. Also, if you are going to be in Philly on Sat night, there is an informal gathering called "Thirsty Penguins" the night before: http://www.dotorganics.org/~tpanzarella/blog/blosxom.cgi/2004/02/15#DrunkPenguins This is just a time to hang out, drink beer, and talk NGO open source. t. From darrylc@fudosys.com Mon Mar 15 17:37:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1CA6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:37:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] GNUe analysis - might be helpful From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev In-Reply-To: References: <1079379527.1305.72.camel@dhcppc4> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079393514.1289.35.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 15 Mar 2004 15:31:54 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: On Mon, 2004-03-15 at 12:34, Jason Maas wrote: > >Why GNUe isn't good for Calendula: > > > >* Poor documentation (the current developers prefer IRC) > >* Poor support (very little list traffic), limited adoption > > While those do raise red flags, I don't think they're show stoppers > because they're fairly easily remedied. They are show stoppers for me because it means that the development tools aren't mature enough to attract and sustain developers across a broad spectrum. > > >* Unstable framework > >* inflexible UI design > > These two are more interesting. Could you write a sentence or two about > each one explaining what you mean? For example, by "unstable" do you mean > that it crashes often or that the API changes daily...? > GNUe Designer crashed every time. The UI for GNUe Forms is pretty much set in stone. While it is nice to be able to whip up some xml and not have to worry about developing a whole app from the ground up, I'd rather control the look/feel decisions. > >A better analysis would be to look at the GNUMED project > >(www.gnumed.org). > > I poked around briefly on their website. I had never heard of the project > before but it does look interesting. What in particular should we look > at? * wxPython toolkit. * Client/Server model * Modular design * The database abstraction is similar to what you guys at DM have expressed an interest in. * Useful Design docs. * The UI offers a Python shell for interfacing with the guts of the system. -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From darrylc@fudosys.com Mon Mar 15 18:31:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74036DD4; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:31:36 -0600 (CST) From: Darryl Caldwell To: bill-bell@bill-bell.hamilton.on.ca Cc: caldev In-Reply-To: <4055D5DD.2665.14B06E2F@localhost> References: <405592F0.19943.13AB010B@localhost> <4055D5DD.2665.14B06E2F@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079396730.1288.58.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 15 Mar 2004 16:25:31 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Calendula-devel] multiple clients Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Bill, I have had a client/server model in mind from the beginning. I envision this system going into an office of 8 desktops. Not everyone will use Calendula except one or two financial development officers and other staff doing data entry. Zope is the easiest thing I have ever installed and it has some built in user admin that will come in handy. I am not expecting nonprofit personnel to learn dtml or Zope Page Templates. After looking at the cool code you have written for upload PDFs into Zope for text searches in ZCatalogs, I am not worried about you. In regard to multiple clients, the dm.org guys have some good ideas using the Modeling framework. http://modeling.sourceforge.net/ And lastly, I am hopeful that a demo version of Morphix/Debian-NP loaded up with Calendula and supporting systems would fit the bill, Bill. -D On Mon, 2004-03-15 at 13:12, Bill Bell wrote: > On 15 Mar 2004 at 11:06, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > > > > 3. Language: Python for flexibility, readability, and as my own safety net > > (meaning if you all get hit by a bus, I need to be able to forge ahead). > > wxPython has really good support for adopting a native look/feel, but this > > will come after the Zope prototype. > > Multi-client systems are harder to build than those that are for single clients. What's > more, we are likely to spend considerable time fooling with the GUI, and it might be > unwise to need to drag a server along with us--_especially_ Zope. (Lots of people > never get over the learning curve for that beasty.) > > Why not build a single-client version of the system first? One immediate payoff would > be that it could be distributed to quite small non-profits (who are, after all, principal > targets for the system), which would benefit them and give us a lot of feedback about > usability and the like. > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Calendula-devel mailing list > Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From tpanzarella@mac.com Mon Mar 15 19:19:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 96E7A6DDC; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:19:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.83]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF37A6DD4 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:18:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail30-en1.mac.com (webmail30-en1 [10.13.10.130]) by smtpout.mac.com (8.12.6/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2G1IrhB011555 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail30 (localhost.mac.com [127.0.0.1]) by webmail30-en1.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i2G1IrWS008249 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:18:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <10053998.1079399933365.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:18:53 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: caldev Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] multiple clients X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01 version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Once again, I am confused, sorry. (see below) > >I have had a client/server model in mind from the beginning. I envision >this system going into an office of 8 desktops. Not everyone will use >Calendula except one or two financial development officers and other >staff doing data entry. > >Zope is the easiest thing I have ever installed and it has some built in >user admin that will come in handy. I am not expecting nonprofit >personnel to learn dtml or Zope Page Templates. After looking at the >cool code you have written for upload PDFs into Zope for text searches >in ZCatalogs, I am not worried about you. > I have only minimal exposure to Zope, but does it support something other than HTTP? If not, why would we write a full blown (presumably) multi-threaded client that cannot maintain a persistent connection to the server? In this case, the desktop GUI seems pointless, dynamically rendered web pages would fit the bill just fine. > >In regard to multiple clients, the dm.org guys have some good ideas >using the Modeling framework. > >http://modeling.sourceforge.net/ > What does object / relational mapping have to do with clients? Object / relational mapping is a persistence tier issue and should be designed completely independent of any client code. Am I missing something? From darrylc@fudosys.com Tue Mar 16 12:57:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0BA6DD4 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:57:32 -0600 (CST) From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079463060.1293.20.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 16 Mar 2004 10:51:00 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Calendula-devel] Article Cleaned Up Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: I just spent a lot of time editing and cleaning up the business case article at http://fudosys.com/Calendula.html Use this one if you are printing copies to send to NPO peers.... -D -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From tpanzarella@mac.com Tue Mar 16 13:03:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id C28516DDD; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:03:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.86]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1076DD4 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:02:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail18.mac.com (webmail18-en1 [10.13.10.160]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i2GJ2tiv003036 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail18 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail18.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i2GJ2tCL025247 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:02:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <11835203.1079463775545.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:02:55 -0500 From: Thomas Panzarella To: caldev Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] Article Cleaned Up X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Is this the latest version in CVS? On Tuesday, March 16, 2004, at 01:51PM, Darryl Caldwell wrote: >I just spent a lot of time editing and cleaning up the business case >article at http://fudosys.com/Calendula.html Use this one if you are >printing copies to send to NPO peers.... > >-D > > >-- >Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com >Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com >206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" > >_______________________________________________ >Calendula-devel mailing list >Calendula-devel@fudosys.com >http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel > > From darrylc@fudosys.com Tue Mar 16 13:12:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF076DDC for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:12:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] Article Cleaned Up From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev In-Reply-To: <11835203.1079463775545.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> References: <11835203.1079463775545.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079463937.1292.26.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 16 Mar 2004 11:05:38 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: This version is not in cvs yet. I am actually having a problem connecting to savannah from my corner of the world. Can any of you even get to the web site? -D On Tue, 2004-03-16 at 11:02, Thomas Panzarella wrote: > Is this the latest version in CVS? > > On Tuesday, March 16, 2004, at 01:51PM, Darryl Caldwell wrote: > > >I just spent a lot of time editing and cleaning up the business case > >article at http://fudosys.com/Calendula.html Use this one if you are > >printing copies to send to NPO peers.... > > > >-D > > > > > >-- > >Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com > >Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com > >206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Calendula-devel mailing list > >Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > >http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Calendula-devel mailing list > Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From darrylc@fudosys.com Tue Mar 16 15:07:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D2F6DD4 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:07:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Calendula-devel] multiple clients From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev In-Reply-To: <10053998.1079399933365.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> References: <10053998.1079399933365.JavaMail.tpanzarella@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079470791.1293.76.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 16 Mar 2004 12:59:51 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, Benevolent Dictator here. Sorry, I was trying to do too many things at once yesterday (and today). Let's set the mulitple client discussion aside for now. I want to keep this first round of Calendula development very simple. Until a working prototype (even a mediocre one) is out for all to see, this project is not get the attention it deserves. To wit, I will be polling you all for an inventory of your talents. I will be making requests of you coders for specific tasks. Baby steps..... -D On Mon, 2004-03-15 at 17:18, Thomas Panzarella wrote: > Once again, I am confused, sorry. (see below) > > > > >I have had a client/server model in mind from the beginning. I envision > >this system going into an office of 8 desktops. Not everyone will use > >Calendula except one or two financial development officers and other > >staff doing data entry. > > > >Zope is the easiest thing I have ever installed and it has some built in > >user admin that will come in handy. I am not expecting nonprofit > >personnel to learn dtml or Zope Page Templates. After looking at the > >cool code you have written for upload PDFs into Zope for text searches > >in ZCatalogs, I am not worried about you. > > > > I have only minimal exposure to Zope, but does it support something other than HTTP? If not, why would we write a full blown (presumably) multi-threaded client that cannot maintain a persistent connection to the server? In this case, the desktop GUI seems pointless, dynamically rendered web pages would fit the bill just fine. > > > > >In regard to multiple clients, the dm.org guys have some good ideas > >using the Modeling framework. > > > >http://modeling.sourceforge.net/ > > > > What does object / relational mapping have to do with clients? Object / relational mapping is a persistence tier issue and should be designed completely independent of any client code. Am I missing something? > > > _______________________________________________ > Calendula-devel mailing list > Calendula-devel@fudosys.com > http://list.fudosys.com/mailman/listinfo/calendula-devel -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From darrylc@fudosys.com Wed Mar 17 12:49:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: from localhost (fudosys.com [12.158.191.73]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163F36DDD for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:49:21 -0600 (CST) From: Darryl Caldwell To: caldev Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Fudo Systems Message-Id: <1079548708.1309.1.camel@dhcppc4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 17 Mar 2004 10:38:28 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Calendula-devel] Savannah Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Heads up. Savannah is down. No word yet on why. -D -- Darryl Caldwell darrylc@fudosys.com Fudo Systems www.fudosys.com 206/567-5802 "Free Your Computers!" From jamest@gnuenterprise.org Wed Mar 17 16:23:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Original-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Delivered-To: calendula-devel@riposte.org Received: by riposte.org (Postfix, from userid 612) id 062D26DDD; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:23:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from newton.math.ksu.edu (gw.math.ksu.edu [129.130.6.1]) by riposte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1EE6DD4 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:22:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from hobbes.math.ksu.edu (HOBBES.MATH.KSU.EDU [172.16.2.24]) by newton.math.ksu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970F3D6C3B for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:22:43 -0600 (CST) From: James Thompson To: calendula-devel@fudosys.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:22:38 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 Message-Id: <200403171622.38896.jamest@gnuenterprise.org> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,USER_AGENT_KMAIL version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Sanitizer: Advosys mail filter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Calendula-devel] re: GNUe analysis - might be helpful Sender: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com Errors-To: calendula-devel-admin@fudosys.com X-BeenThere: calendula-devel@fudosys.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Development Discussion for Calendula (Fundraising System) List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Someone pointed out to me the mail below. So I figured I'd join and respond.... > Why GNUe isn't good for Calendula: > > * Poor documentation This is true. It's worse than I recall it being. I'll try and address that. > * Unstable framework I'm not sure which part of GNUe is being referred to here. I'm using gnue-common based apps 24/7 in local company that does business almost nationwide. They use gnue-forms based UIs daily to accomplish tasks, such as routing their incoming faxes (billings) to the appropriate customer accounts. > * Poor support (very little list traffic), We have gravitated toward IRC based support. This did make for poor list support. On the other hand if you catch a developer in IRC you can frequently get patches in minutes working in real time with the developers. > limited adoption This partially falls back on poor documentation. But any project, such as your own, will also have limited adoption at first. > * inflexible UI design I think this is where some of the confusion from the docs is hurting GNUe. All the gnue tools can be used separately. When using parts of GNUe you are not forced into things like using GNUe-Forms as your UI. GNUe-POS (available in our svn tree) is based upon gnue-common and wxPython. I'm currently building a web based project using mod_python, gnue-common, gnue-reports, etc. I may or may not add gnue-forms based administration forms. It's basically just another set of tools in your toolbox. > > them they said, "well that's how we like to work." > This may indeed be what you were told. If so then I'll apologize and try to explain a little. We constantly have people people drop by IRC telling us how we're doing things wrong. We've had people suggest we throw out 10s of thousands of lines of code to do things their way. Most the time they won't bother to learn our systems before doing so. Often times these same people are the ones that will never contribute anything. We've had people come in then quickly fork after telling us we're too slow. I don't think any single fork has ever survived. I think they tend to figure out that some of this stuff can't be written fast. And it's hard to find people willing to write business apps for free in their spare time. Anyway, after a while you tend to get a little touchy when people start to question the hows and whys. Call it burn out, apathy, whatever you'd like. I know it's not right, but we're all human. I'm not meaning to say that Darryl said anything wrong. It's probably more like he caught that grumpy old man GNUe in a bad mood. :) So, is GNUe right for your project. I really can't say